“A number of us in Godstone Road are forming an action group relating to the lease extension problem. Those of us living in maisonettes are now in position where the length of the lease on our properties is running short creating a potential obstacle if we were to try and sell. The landlords are now asking for £28k to extend to a reasonable 99 years. We believe that a great number of households are faced with the same dilemma.”
– from Madeleine Menzies
To help, we have set up a forum where residents can discuss this issue.
Comments
The forum is not restricted to those living in Godstone Road. I suspect there are others affected by this problem living in maisonettes on the N&D estate.
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-08 14:52:29 +0000Maddie,
Thanks for this. I live in a nearby road and am in the same position, with having to give consideration for an extension of the lease but am horrified at the finances involved, particularly as my then downstairs neighbour secured an extension for much much less in 2001.
Perhaps if we see the numbers who are interested it may be useful to contact the lesaholder advice organisation for help and the local MP.
No doubt this will have been thought of.
Dave on 2007-05-08 17:16:03 +0000Hi Dave, we have only started out in our investigations and are aware of others who have extended leases for much less. So far we have corresponded with the councillors and had some input from Lawrence Mann. The difference between now and 2001 is the increase in value of the properties and the length remaining on the leases. Perhaps what we should each do is collate the information we have so far and post this in the forum pages. Also to make more people in the area aware that an action group is being formed. What do you think?
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-08 18:27:02 +0000Maddie,
This is the sort of thing that I have dealt with (although at a very basic level) on a number of occasions at Richmond Legal Advise Service (www.rlas.org.uk). What I suggest to clients is that they first look at the Leasehold Advisory Service web site (www.stmgrts.org.uk/http://www.lease-advice.org/) (not the Leasehold Advisory Group which appears to be a just a collection of specialist advisers, eg lawyers, surveyors).
There is material on leasehold extension on the site. As I understand the position, the amount for an extension of a lease is governed/specified by law (sometimes lessors do not apply the law correctly and do not ask for the correct amount). The LAS site includes an explanation on how this is calculated (the page headed "Valuation for Leasehold Extension - Valuation Issues for Lease Extension for Flats" - I cannot provide a direct link because of the way the site is constructed).
In my experience, you should first contact the Leasehold Advisory Service, but that any serious negotiations/dispute is best handled by a specialist lawyer (the LAS provides a list of solicitors - but it seems fairly generic (self selecting)). I know that some clients seen at Richmond Legal Advice Service have funded the cost of a lawyer through the use of legal expenses cover in an insurance policy (such as contents policy). Even if that is not available, then if there is a group of you, the cost could be spread.
Victor Warner on 2007-05-09 09:43:43 +0000Hi Maddie I moved in to Sidney Road in Dec 2005 on a relatively short lease. In my "Report on Title" document from my solicitor I have correspondence from Grainger Trust dated 01 June 2005, noting that "their most recent lease extension was for a flat in Godstone Road which held a lease term of 66 years unexpired and this was agreed at a figure of £13,500 with a reviewable ground rent provision".
I can supply a copy of this if this helps us all.
Phil Bolton on 2007-05-10 15:08:05 +0000Phil thank you for the offer of a copy of the letter dated 1 June 2005. It is in the last couple of years that the value of our properties has dramatically increased. The hike in what Grainger Trust are now asking is related to that increase. Please do hold on to your letter, we may need it in the future.
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-10 16:07:06 +0000hi all - i dealt directly with N&D last year as i am a Chartered Property Surveyor by profession (not an estate agent though!) and understand at least the principles behind how lease extensions should be valued!.
Victor is correct that matters are governed by legislation under Leasehold Enfranchisement rules but really it should be a professional surveyor and not a lawyer who does any negotiating - (values of local property are required to be assessed and i certainly would not expect a normal lawyer to be able to do this!) they should only need to get involved on final documentation matters.
N&D's figure is very much an an "opening shot" - the end figure to be agreed upon would depend totally on each person's Lease details. as an illustration we extended ours for £13,750.
i hope this helps.
as a bit of an afterthough here: would anyone be interested if i was to consider offering my services to act for them against N&D (for a fee)?? - just a thought!!
mike on 2007-05-10 16:10:29 +0000Phil thank you for the offer of a copy of the letter dated 1 June 2005. It is in the last couple of years that the value of our properties has dramatically increased. The hike in what Grainger Trust are now asking is related to that increase. Please do hold on to your letter, we may need it in the future.
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-10 16:11:20 +0000Mike when did you extend your lease?
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-10 16:13:08 +0000maddie - negotiations started early last year and completed around mid 2006
mike on 2007-05-10 18:13:53 +0000Maddie,
We live in Godstone Road as well and are faced with the same dilemma, as is our neighbour downstairs.
As has been noted www.lease-advice.org is an excellent website. It explains how the calculation is done. The key element is the "marriage value". This is how much more the flat is worth with a new lease. The increase in value (say £30,000) is then split between landlord and tenant so only half of it goes into the calculation. This is the biggest element of the price of a new lease. Of course, determining this is not an exact science and can be argued over (your surveyor/ N&D surveyor).
The other key point is that, if agreement cannot be reached, either party can elect to take the matter to a Leasehold Valuation Tribunal. These are low-cost tribunals set up to adjudicate on these issues and their calculation - after hearing both sides - is final. Landlords rely on inertia, ignorance and inactivity on the part of tenants in not taking such matters further.
Jacob
Jacob Cameron on 2007-05-10 21:48:52 +0000in addition to marriage value you also need to pay the Landlord for the fact that by extending your Lease he will effectively lose value on his present interest in the property (all those annual ground rents do add up!).
N&D will negotiate because there is the ultimate sanction (if you qualify) of seeking legally an 90 yr extension to your current lease term at a nil rent. This is provided for under statute but the trade off for this is a lower premium payable than it would be under the above scenario.
Also N&D will not want to take matters to LVT as all decisions from LVTs are put in the public domain on a website.
mike on 2007-05-11 09:01:56 +0000I would be interested in taking up Mike's offer of acting as a representative against N & D. He has had the recent experience of securing an extension to his lease and also the relevant professional background to help the process through.
Dave on 2007-05-11 11:31:03 +0000Would it be an idea to organise a date when all those interested can meet up. Should we consider a leaflet drop to gauge how many interested parties there are and then set a date?
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-11 17:17:37 +0000dave - would be happy to meet up for a chat about taking matters forward - mail me at mike.de.parker@btinternet.com
mike on 2007-05-12 20:58:30 +0000I think Maddie's suggestion is an excellent way forward.
Dave on 2007-05-14 10:24:01 +0000Maddie / All,
I am in a very similar position with my ground floor maisonette in Sidney Rd. I would be very interested in meeting up to discuss how to take this forward. I would also be happy to help with a leaflet drop or similar, if needed. Graeme / Sidney Rd
GRAEME on 2007-05-15 05:56:36 +0000Am looking at the evenings of 30 May or 6 June as possible dates for a meeting, venue to be discussed.
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-15 08:15:44 +0000Maddie/All,
30th May suits me better, but see what other neighbours feel and go with that.
Dave on 2007-05-15 10:25:35 +0000May 30th good for me. Phil Sidney Road
Phil Bolton on 2007-05-15 13:14:05 +0000All, I am not available on either date, I'm afraid, but would be happy to catch up with you after you have had preliminary discussions on this. Keen to play a part! Sidney Rd. Graeme
GRAEME on 2007-05-15 17:40:31 +0000Several of us at the Moormead end of Godstone certainly affected by this and interested - I couldn't make May 30, but possibly my neighbours, in exactly the same position, could. In any case group consideration of the problem, and possibly group action, definitely seems the best way forward. Maev
maev kennedy on 2007-05-16 16:41:40 +0000Would anyone like to suggest a venue? Guess we should aim for 7:30 start. I am a little short on seating at my place so perhaps a local establishment. Also suggest continuing this conversation via email until we have agreed firm arrangements. Email me on maddie.menzies@btopenworld.com
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-16 22:48:51 +0000Maddie / All, I considered extending the lease on my property in Godstone Road in early 2004. The lease was valued by Douglas & Gordon on the instructions of BPT (Residential Management Services) Ltd., a Grainger company.
I was offered a 90 year lease extension for £16,000 subject to contract and payment of Grainger's "reasonable legal fees".
I still wish to extend my lease and would certainly welcome an opportunity to discuss the matter with other affected parties and put some pressure on Grainger Residential Management. 30th May would be fine for me.
sandy clark on 2007-05-16 23:27:27 +0000Hi All, I have just reserved a table at the Turk's Head for 30 May from 19:30. There are at least 10 people who have voiced an interest. Thought it best to make sure we have somewhere to sit, no need to eat.
Meanwhile I am putting together an agenda with suggested objectives for the meeting. If you have questions you would like answers to why not email them to me
maddie.menzies@btopenworld.com
or post them here on the website.
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-18 12:01:57 +0000i have met up with dave and had broad discussion with him - should be able to make the 30th subject to kidsitting arrangements
mike on 2007-05-23 09:07:23 +0000I just came across your forum and wanted to send you my good wishes. I'm going through this process myself at the moment, having got as far as choosing a surveyor from the Leasehold Advisory Service's website and asking him to report on my flat. I'll be watching your progress with interest. Meanwhile, I'm more than happy to share my own experiences if you think they might be helpful.
jeremy.pender@btinternet.com
Jeremy Pender on 2007-05-28 09:53:17 +0000Hi All
Just a little reminder about the meeting on Wednesday 30 May at 19:30, venue The Turks Head. A table is reserved for us so guess I will be there a little earlier and place some sort of placard on the table so we recognise each other. Some of you I will know if course.
Here is my punt for an agenda and not necessarily in this order:
Agenda Actions / discussions so far Negotiating as a group or individually - what are the advantages/disadvantages (cost, reaction from N&D, etc.,) Of those present at the meeting what number of years are left on each lease? Set up of housing association. Advantages and disadvantages. Leaflet distribution dependent on outcome of discussions so far(content, printing etc.,) Likely cost of legal advice/surveys and time span to close. Resources and contacts available (surveyors/lawyers). Cadogan v Sportelli case - impact of outcome and and hearing at Court of Appeal
Maddie
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-28 11:25:23 +0000Hi Maddie, and everyone else.
I have just come across this forum today. I live in Godstone Road and am in the same boat as everyone else and would really liked to get involved with the action group to find a solution to this problem.
Are there going to be any further meetings
Jason
Jason on 2007-05-31 17:05:50 +0000Jason The meeting went very well. We are about to issue the notes which will include some useful information. We are also going to distribute a leaflet in the next couple of weeks. We are hoping to schedule a meeting in the Winchester Hall with representative from the Lease Advice organisation www.lease-advice.org.uk/.
All updates will of course be posted on this site and via email. If you would like to email me I will include you in the group mailings.
maddie.menzies@btopenworld.com
Maddie Racionzer on 2007-05-31 22:36:27 +0000Hi All,
I am also in the same predicament (Winchester Road N&D) and would really like to attend the next meeting. Maddie,I will email you on the above address to be included on mailings.
Andy
Andrew on 2007-06-05 16:01:50 +0000We are in the process of extending our 65 yr lease for a ground floor maisonette in Sidney Rd near Moormeads. Grainger Trust are asking 30k for 90 yr extension. Our surveyor has rcommended 25k( to start negotiation at 23k ) Statutary application has already been made, leading potentially to LVT in New Year, if no negotiated settlement beforehand. We are rather shocked at our own surveyor's assessment. Does anyone have any ideas or similar current problems? Michael 2
Michael 2 on 2007-12-03 13:02:13 +0000If possible can someone please give me some ideas as to how much surveyors and solicitors charge for handling a lease extension application?
Hu Mee on 2008-01-09 11:18:59 +0000Hu Mee have a look at this document www.stmgrts.org.uk/lease_process.pdf
Hope it helps
Maddie
Maddie Racionzer on 2008-02-06 16:08:01 +0000I have a long running issue with my managing agent and really need to go on the offensive. could anybody recommend a good solicitor in this area of law.
Andrew Scotting on 2008-02-27 16:35:52 +0000Hello Maddie - we live in Cambridge and my daughter is thinking of buying the lease of her rented flat which is leased to her by a Housing Association.
Like your group, she would have a short, 68-year lease. Have you made any progress since Feb 28th over this problem, as my daughter would only want to buy the lease if she could sell it soon, because she does not like it.
We don't mind the cost of the lease extension so much if it immediataely values the flat by twice as much extra as the cost of the extension. However, if my daughter wishes to sell before 10 years she would have to offer it back to the Housing Associaiton. If they wanted it, they would have to pay, in theory, a market price. But would they pay for the much-increased value of the flat after a leasse extension? Could they block a lease extension? Are the properties of your group with a Housing Associaition, by and large? (The Grainger Trust sounds like one)
Hope you have time to reply - best wishes - Elizabeth Cary
Elizabeth Cary on 2008-03-19 18:52:10 +0000Hi everyone.
Glad to see everyone is proactive in trying to secure their freehold!
I thought I'd post, in the event you have not found a suitable lawyer for the legal aspect of the freehold acquisition.
I am a qualified solicitor and have 5 years experience in this area of law (known as Leasehold Enfranchisement). I practised at a "Top 500" law firm in Beckneham and Bromley region but I now have my own law firm, based in Beckenham.
I used to live in Nutfield, so I am familiar with the Godstone area. Although I now live in Biggin Hill, I am effectively just down the road, and I would be happy to attend, FOR FREE, a meeting of the residents (evening and weekends are fine) to run through the process and also answer the many qustions leaseholders no doubt have.
I can be contacted on 020 3326 5031 or by email at tom@tjmlaw.co.uk.
If you already have secured legal services, I wish you all the best!
Kind Regards
Tom Merralls
Tom Merralls on 2008-04-25 09:07:50 +0000Hi all,
How annoying. I just posted a long post, and it...err didn't post! Anyhow, to cut another long story short, if the residents are still looking to buy their freehold, I am happy to help.
I am a qualified solicitor and I have been specialising in this field (known as Leasehold Enfranchisement) for the past 5 years.
I used to live in Nutfield, so I am familiar with the Godston area.
I presently live in Biggin Hill and, as I am just around the corner so to speak, I am happy to attend a meeting of the residents to run through the procedure and answer any questions the leaseholders may have. I am prepared to attend the meeting for FREE and this service I can offer in the evenings and at weekends. I appreciate how difficult it is to get any number of residents together for a meeting.
You can contact me on either 020 3326 5031 or by email at tom@tjmlaw.co.uk
I look forward to assisting where I can.
Kind Regards
Tom Merralls
Tom Merralls on 2008-04-25 09:26:41 +0000And now my first post appears. Wouldn't you just know it...
Tom Merralls on 2008-04-25 09:30:12 +0000Hi Tom
Thank you for contacting us. We are quite a long way into negotiations now so will not be accepting your kind offer. We have been moving forward with the process for almost a year now and in total 25 transactions, mostly lease extensions, not collective enfranchisement will be taking place. However, there may be a number of residents in the area who were unable to go forward with this group who are now ready to proceed. Once again thank you. Maddie
Maddie Racionzer on 2008-04-25 12:24:52 +0000Hi Maddie
We live in Kenley Road and are considering extending our lease. We did contact you last year but we thought we were imminent to move and with a 76 yr lease hoped we would manange a sale. Now we plan to stay a few more years so yesterday I had a long chat with Owen Grainger. It seems that things are not great with N&D in that they are playing hard ball with negotiations. The only way forward seems to be to try and start another action group. Could you kindly tell me if you are aware of any residents who did not join your group and are still in need of extending their lease?
Kind regards
Lisa Lopez
Lisa Lopez on 2009-05-07 10:41:02 +0000Hello
I am selling my flat in SW18 and Grainger own the freehold and my lease is 74 yrs to go - I have been quoted about £25,000 for extension of the exisitng lease and I feel this is extreme to say the least. Can you give me a feel for the outcomes that you acheived against Grainger - thanks
JO
Jo Cockerill on 2010-10-04 11:09:33 +0000Hi Jo, would you like to email me maddie.menzies@btopenworld.com
Maddie Racionzer on 2010-10-09 11:14:29 +0000Hello,
We are about to appoint a surveyor to either extend the lease, or buy the freehold from Grainger, for our maisonette in Sidney Rd.
As mentioned in other posts, we have heard that people with similar leases (65 years) have gone for 17K after originally being quoted 25K for a lease extension.
With this in mind, it would be good to hear if anyone has experience with the purchase of the freehold from Grainger. Obviously we would be looking at collective enfranchisement (upper and lower properties), and preliminary enquires are coming in at between 8-12K.
Any experience and comments gratefully received.
Thanks,
Kat
kate on 2010-11-10 19:51:48 +0000Add a comment